I absolutely loved Saltburn. Just thought it was perfect. It really IS a great example of your choice/non-choice thing. Everybody had a choice, even those--like the parents--who were doomed into doltishness by choices made long ago, like Elspeth's (hilarious) revulsion to "ugliness." Elspeth was comfortable with her metaphysical identity as "One Who Is Repulsed by Ugliness", which seems to include "wetness", which is lol and particularly so because she'll end up a name on a rock in the water. Which is not to say I wished for anyone's downfall. I kinda-sorta liked them all, not cause they were rich, just cause I like my delusions, too. Just loved it. (Triangle of Sadness was so unfunny and didactic that it robbed me of any thoughts so I don't have any.)
I love both films but Saltburn definitely went into my favourite films of all time. I loved so much of it - especially how erotic it strained to be... the eroticism manifests itself in a kind of elite fantasy. Feelings of joy and sexual freedom only achieved with great wealth. Triangle of Sadness was less a movie per say and more of a treatise on power made into a very obvious, very literal film. I felt the film makers had to hit people over the head to get them to understand how much wealth can create illusions of power. But yes, Saltburn was better.
I didn’t love Saltburn (I thought it neared the horizon of class commentary but didn’t quite cross it in any meaningful way, perhaps because I couldn’t get Talented Mr. Ripley, which does this plot so well, out of my head) but I really enjoyed your perspective and it made me examine my thoughts/distaste more deeply. Thank you!
Just watched Saltburn and enjoyed it. Oliver's lie reminded me of upper-middle-class self-loathing, where they wish they were either living large as aristocrats or struggling nobly as proletariats. As the UMC, they're in the worst of both worlds, where they don't have genuine wealth, but they also don't have some heroic underdog narrative.
Have you ever read Loner by Teddy Wayne? There's a great part the protagonist, David Federman, resents being from well-to-do surburban New Jersey, which lacks both the elite sophistication of New York City and the admirable grittiness of Springsteen's NJ. Oliver reminded me of David, another psychotic social climber.
I didn't watch any of these; now I am going to, I guess, when I have a chance, at least "Saltburn" which might be on one of the streaming services I do have?
Speaking strictly in comparison with the Matt Damon Ripley, I feel like Saltburn lacks a certain plausibility of character. When Freddie Miles finds Ripley again in Rome, he says something like “the only thing that looks like Dickie here...is you.” What Miles and Ripley both understand is that Dickie was a rich midwit, and what Ripley believes at his core is that he’s entitled to Dickie’s wealth because he can live that life better, more aesthetically, more intellectually (and I think the disconcerting brilliance of the story is that we agree with him). We’re prepped for something similar in Saltburn (Oliver’s done the whole summer reading list!) but aside from his identifying the obscure ceramics, as the film wears on we lose any sense that Oliver is some kind of natural aristocrat. His grand victory is walking around the estate naked? (Also the murder scene in Ripley is frighteningly realistic and genuinely shocking.) I did vibe on the mid-2000s setting, though. Maybe our world can’t create Ripleys anymore?
I don’t think Oliver is supposed to be a natural aristocrat, though! Hence why he hides his middleclassness in victimhood rather than trying to play rich. He doesn’t like runny eggs! And, unlike Tom/Dickie, there’s no physical resemblance. So many shots emphasize Felix towering over Oliver.
I suppose that’s true, and maybe Oliver doesn’t want to be Felix in the sense that Ripley wants to be Dickie. But what Miles is referring to there is the “sophisticated” decor Ripley has filled Dickie’s apartment with, so on the one hand Ripley reveals himself as this somewhat pretentious middle-class striver, but on the other hand he really is more of an intellectual than Dickie (and who knows, maybe a lot of “culture” really is just middle-class striving!). When Oliver meets the family for the first time, they’re huddled around the TV watching Superbad, which is a great gag, we understand that *their* tastes aren’t exactly aristocratic, but what is it he wants from them? Maybe the issue isn’t plausibility — I can accept if Saltburn is about the simultaneous hollowness and affability of the rich, but then, is Oliver only after erotic thrills and a famous country house? I guess that works if the film just wants to reveal that his social climbing is *also* completely hollow (the erudition and the ceramics and everything were just a means to an end) but I think what makes Ripley such a fascinating character is that there is a genuine yearning in him for something more poetic or elevated, even as this is distorted by a sociopathic sense of injustice or deprivation.
Saltburn was flawed but fun. It elevated above merely fun with some of the dialogue, which stunned at points. I wished for a less plotted, “talky” film.
Great takes on these two films. I liked the Sadness film when it went out on ship and beyond. Watched Saltburn this week and I was really entertained. The blend of dark, nasty malevolence and the caricatured humour (upper class are twits - that sort of thing) and the way these two aspects were intertwined seemed really fresh. My favourite bit was the Pulp 'Common People' joke (I'm easily pleased). I watched Promising Young Woman but don't remember it. Might rewatch because I obviously didn't get it.
I watched triangle, ironically just a few weeks before my own 2-week European cruises, not knowing in advance of course about triangle’s plot. The restaurant and hotel scenes, although I am very familiar with slow paced movies and this sort of stuck-forever scene, just felt way too much art for art’s sake and almost made us abandon the movie halfway. Imagine my delight when it transitioned to the cruise - great I thought , here comes a well cinematographed (not a word) movie that will put us in the cruisin’ mood. I don’t think the movie deserved watching until the end. Many times I felt like scenes dragged on and escalated needlessly just to prove that they could, and I couldn’t shake the “this has been done before and much more artfully” feeling. As for cringe-induction, if you like that sort of thing, The Hostel did that much more effectively, and somehow that gore felt justified vs what triangle had to offer. I am also reminded inexplicably of fellini’s satyricon.
In the end I just felt like rewatching my favorite jim jarmusch movies was needed to cleanse my palate.
I generally love art for art’s sake! My problem here was more artifice-for-moral-kudos sake. & cringe-induction can be good, provided it’s not the only game in town. The problem w/ all the dragging here is the director forgets what Fennell remembers: to entertain!
Triangle of Sadness was one of those movies where I was like "what on earth am I watching?" and I so rarely have that reaction that it edges me towards positivity. Like I don't think the plot, characters, or thematic content were hitting on all levels, but I get excited about people taking wild swings. [hated saltburn]
because i had never seen anything like Triangle, even if it didn't entirely work, when saltburn felt like pieces of other movies i had seen. I'm a very old fashioned storyteller- i dont think the end was justified by the characterization in the first 2/3. it felt like they were trying to be clever and make it like Usual Suspects or Talented Mr Ripley but Ripley did this way better. the repeated transgressive things felt like "look how transgressive i am" rather than earning any one of them. I liked the performances and how it was filmed but when i was like, dear god i hate this, i was not surprised that the director also did Promising Young Woman, which i had the same problems with.
I was definitely entertained by Saltburn, but more than I think it deserved.
I was annoyed by the on the nose/ punch in the nose Brideshead references.
I thought it was a messy movie where I didn't really believe the characters. I contrast that with the believability of the Talented Mr. Ripley, and I think it's a steep fall in quality and art between the two. Perhaps that's an unfair comparison.
I have not seen Triangle.
Last movie I watched and liked very much was Anatomy of a Fall.
Rosamund Pike can do no wrong in my book. I didn't "get" the sister or the father. And the biracial kid seemed like a nod to PC. And the reactions at the end seemed unrealistic, like it was descending into farce.
Here's another contrast. I know you're a Whit Stillman fan. How much sharper is Metropolitan?
Agree Pike was brilliant, but…basically nothing about Saltburn struck me as PC! Farleigh’s an effective Freddie-Miles-esque plot support & interesting foil to Oliver from a “victim” perspective.
I’m a huge Stillman fan, but wouldn’t really compare Saltburn to Metropolitan, at least not beyond the first half. To Jeff’s comment above (below?), Metropolitan is all “talky”—Saltburn mixes talky w/ intricate plot. Both great, but different.
Yes. Entertaining but not groundbreaking. I used to work in film, so I have a sophisticated film vocabulary, working with directors last century I needed an encyclopedic mental reference library. Although quite sporadic now, but Swept Away and Lina as a filmmaker were very significant in my career back then. All of her films are worth a view. I even had TG dinner with Giancarlo once. My kind of movie star.
I absolutely loved Saltburn. Just thought it was perfect. It really IS a great example of your choice/non-choice thing. Everybody had a choice, even those--like the parents--who were doomed into doltishness by choices made long ago, like Elspeth's (hilarious) revulsion to "ugliness." Elspeth was comfortable with her metaphysical identity as "One Who Is Repulsed by Ugliness", which seems to include "wetness", which is lol and particularly so because she'll end up a name on a rock in the water. Which is not to say I wished for anyone's downfall. I kinda-sorta liked them all, not cause they were rich, just cause I like my delusions, too. Just loved it. (Triangle of Sadness was so unfunny and didactic that it robbed me of any thoughts so I don't have any.)
Yes yes exactly this!
I love both films but Saltburn definitely went into my favourite films of all time. I loved so much of it - especially how erotic it strained to be... the eroticism manifests itself in a kind of elite fantasy. Feelings of joy and sexual freedom only achieved with great wealth. Triangle of Sadness was less a movie per say and more of a treatise on power made into a very obvious, very literal film. I felt the film makers had to hit people over the head to get them to understand how much wealth can create illusions of power. But yes, Saltburn was better.
Good point re: the conflation of eroticism & wealth. The eroticism of wealth & a wealth of eroticism are both well-represented.
I didn’t love Saltburn (I thought it neared the horizon of class commentary but didn’t quite cross it in any meaningful way, perhaps because I couldn’t get Talented Mr. Ripley, which does this plot so well, out of my head) but I really enjoyed your perspective and it made me examine my thoughts/distaste more deeply. Thank you!
I’m delighted to hear this; thanks for reading. & of course I love Ripley too! https://substack.com/@joukovsky/note/c-47777600?r=7yhbb&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
Just watched Saltburn and enjoyed it. Oliver's lie reminded me of upper-middle-class self-loathing, where they wish they were either living large as aristocrats or struggling nobly as proletariats. As the UMC, they're in the worst of both worlds, where they don't have genuine wealth, but they also don't have some heroic underdog narrative.
Have you ever read Loner by Teddy Wayne? There's a great part the protagonist, David Federman, resents being from well-to-do surburban New Jersey, which lacks both the elite sophistication of New York City and the admirable grittiness of Springsteen's NJ. Oliver reminded me of David, another psychotic social climber.
Absolutely. Haven’t read Loner; will check out!
I didn't watch any of these; now I am going to, I guess, when I have a chance, at least "Saltburn" which might be on one of the streaming services I do have?
Thank you for the delicious review, Natasha.
Speaking strictly in comparison with the Matt Damon Ripley, I feel like Saltburn lacks a certain plausibility of character. When Freddie Miles finds Ripley again in Rome, he says something like “the only thing that looks like Dickie here...is you.” What Miles and Ripley both understand is that Dickie was a rich midwit, and what Ripley believes at his core is that he’s entitled to Dickie’s wealth because he can live that life better, more aesthetically, more intellectually (and I think the disconcerting brilliance of the story is that we agree with him). We’re prepped for something similar in Saltburn (Oliver’s done the whole summer reading list!) but aside from his identifying the obscure ceramics, as the film wears on we lose any sense that Oliver is some kind of natural aristocrat. His grand victory is walking around the estate naked? (Also the murder scene in Ripley is frighteningly realistic and genuinely shocking.) I did vibe on the mid-2000s setting, though. Maybe our world can’t create Ripleys anymore?
I don’t think Oliver is supposed to be a natural aristocrat, though! Hence why he hides his middleclassness in victimhood rather than trying to play rich. He doesn’t like runny eggs! And, unlike Tom/Dickie, there’s no physical resemblance. So many shots emphasize Felix towering over Oliver.
I suppose that’s true, and maybe Oliver doesn’t want to be Felix in the sense that Ripley wants to be Dickie. But what Miles is referring to there is the “sophisticated” decor Ripley has filled Dickie’s apartment with, so on the one hand Ripley reveals himself as this somewhat pretentious middle-class striver, but on the other hand he really is more of an intellectual than Dickie (and who knows, maybe a lot of “culture” really is just middle-class striving!). When Oliver meets the family for the first time, they’re huddled around the TV watching Superbad, which is a great gag, we understand that *their* tastes aren’t exactly aristocratic, but what is it he wants from them? Maybe the issue isn’t plausibility — I can accept if Saltburn is about the simultaneous hollowness and affability of the rich, but then, is Oliver only after erotic thrills and a famous country house? I guess that works if the film just wants to reveal that his social climbing is *also* completely hollow (the erudition and the ceramics and everything were just a means to an end) but I think what makes Ripley such a fascinating character is that there is a genuine yearning in him for something more poetic or elevated, even as this is distorted by a sociopathic sense of injustice or deprivation.
I think Oliver wants to be Felix! But he doesn’t have the looks so it’s a harder path
Saltburn was flawed but fun. It elevated above merely fun with some of the dialogue, which stunned at points. I wished for a less plotted, “talky” film.
Interesting; I thought it balanced plotted & “talky” quite well.
Great takes on these two films. I liked the Sadness film when it went out on ship and beyond. Watched Saltburn this week and I was really entertained. The blend of dark, nasty malevolence and the caricatured humour (upper class are twits - that sort of thing) and the way these two aspects were intertwined seemed really fresh. My favourite bit was the Pulp 'Common People' joke (I'm easily pleased). I watched Promising Young Woman but don't remember it. Might rewatch because I obviously didn't get it.
I watched triangle, ironically just a few weeks before my own 2-week European cruises, not knowing in advance of course about triangle’s plot. The restaurant and hotel scenes, although I am very familiar with slow paced movies and this sort of stuck-forever scene, just felt way too much art for art’s sake and almost made us abandon the movie halfway. Imagine my delight when it transitioned to the cruise - great I thought , here comes a well cinematographed (not a word) movie that will put us in the cruisin’ mood. I don’t think the movie deserved watching until the end. Many times I felt like scenes dragged on and escalated needlessly just to prove that they could, and I couldn’t shake the “this has been done before and much more artfully” feeling. As for cringe-induction, if you like that sort of thing, The Hostel did that much more effectively, and somehow that gore felt justified vs what triangle had to offer. I am also reminded inexplicably of fellini’s satyricon.
In the end I just felt like rewatching my favorite jim jarmusch movies was needed to cleanse my palate.
I generally love art for art’s sake! My problem here was more artifice-for-moral-kudos sake. & cringe-induction can be good, provided it’s not the only game in town. The problem w/ all the dragging here is the director forgets what Fennell remembers: to entertain!
Triangle of Sadness was one of those movies where I was like "what on earth am I watching?" and I so rarely have that reaction that it edges me towards positivity. Like I don't think the plot, characters, or thematic content were hitting on all levels, but I get excited about people taking wild swings. [hated saltburn]
Whoa—you thought Triangle was a wilder swing than Saltburn?! & so curious what you hated…
because i had never seen anything like Triangle, even if it didn't entirely work, when saltburn felt like pieces of other movies i had seen. I'm a very old fashioned storyteller- i dont think the end was justified by the characterization in the first 2/3. it felt like they were trying to be clever and make it like Usual Suspects or Talented Mr Ripley but Ripley did this way better. the repeated transgressive things felt like "look how transgressive i am" rather than earning any one of them. I liked the performances and how it was filmed but when i was like, dear god i hate this, i was not surprised that the director also did Promising Young Woman, which i had the same problems with.
Mmm, I need to see Promising Young Woman for comparison
i will say that I LOVE Carey Mulligan who's very good in it.
I thought she was great in Saltburn too!
I was definitely entertained by Saltburn, but more than I think it deserved.
I was annoyed by the on the nose/ punch in the nose Brideshead references.
I thought it was a messy movie where I didn't really believe the characters. I contrast that with the believability of the Talented Mr. Ripley, and I think it's a steep fall in quality and art between the two. Perhaps that's an unfair comparison.
I have not seen Triangle.
Last movie I watched and liked very much was Anatomy of a Fall.
Curious which characters you found unbelievable—I thought Elspeth was pitch perfect. And I’ll check out Anatomy of a Fall, thanks!
Rosamund Pike can do no wrong in my book. I didn't "get" the sister or the father. And the biracial kid seemed like a nod to PC. And the reactions at the end seemed unrealistic, like it was descending into farce.
Here's another contrast. I know you're a Whit Stillman fan. How much sharper is Metropolitan?
I think you'd like Anatomy.
Agree Pike was brilliant, but…basically nothing about Saltburn struck me as PC! Farleigh’s an effective Freddie-Miles-esque plot support & interesting foil to Oliver from a “victim” perspective.
I’m a huge Stillman fan, but wouldn’t really compare Saltburn to Metropolitan, at least not beyond the first half. To Jeff’s comment above (below?), Metropolitan is all “talky”—Saltburn mixes talky w/ intricate plot. Both great, but different.
Lina Wertmuller’s “Swept Away” 1974
The rest of them are pale imitations, especially Guy Ritchie’s version. (The Madonna vanity vehicle)
Triangle of Sadness... Monty Python did that vomiting scene so much better, and with humour.
I guess I need to watch Swept Away…did you see Saltburn?
Meh
Yes. Entertaining but not groundbreaking. I used to work in film, so I have a sophisticated film vocabulary, working with directors last century I needed an encyclopedic mental reference library. Although quite sporadic now, but Swept Away and Lina as a filmmaker were very significant in my career back then. All of her films are worth a view. I even had TG dinner with Giancarlo once. My kind of movie star.
Thank you! And omg you have to see Saltburn…